Were Kallas to do so, she'd also be stepping down as prime minister.

Gräzin, 71, who is not currently an MP but sits on Tallinn City Council, gave an interview to ERR.

How do you view the quiet subsidence of your city council group, which has been going on over the past few months (Center is in coalition in Tallinn together with the Social Democrats – ed.)?

Ok how do I look at it?... Well, I'll take a look when I attend a council session. Then I'll be able to see if there's anyone left or not. If not, then I'll walk too.

Have you also weighed up, given the Center Party that we have now, whether it makes sense to continue with them?

When I joined the party was actually a bit like that – it was not so much a case of that as leaving the Reform Party.

I've said it twice in the media, and I'm ready to say it a third time. My word is at stake here, so I must not break it: I'll submit an application to return to the Reform Party the very day after Kaja Kallas leaves the party.

You would be ready to return to the Reform Party, yet the sole obstacle is Kaja Kallas?

Yes. It's an interesting fact that when I was at at the European Parliament (September 2018-July 2019), I was neither in the Center Party or the Reform Party. My job in Brussels lay with the UK Independence Party (UKIP), meaning Nigel Farage (who stepped down as UKIP leader in 2016 – ed.). I voted with them. But my own personal political party in Europe has disappeared. England is free, and that's the end of the story.

Political parties in Tallinn have definitely been holding talks to push the Center Party out of office in Tallinn. You haven't been contacted?

Oh no, oh no! I know nothing about any talks.

I do know one thing. The Social Democrats (SDE) in Tallinn, who everything turns on as to whether they stay in the coalition. SDE have repeatedly stated that they want to remain in the coalition. I've read that in the newspaper, and I've heard it from [SDE Riigikogu whip Jevgeni] Ossinovski.

This is the current state of play. For as long as SDE and the Center Party are a united coalition, any negotiations are relatively pointless.

As for yourself: Why the Reform Party, instead of the current rising star, Isamaa?

I am a founding member of the Reform Party so this is my party. It has been from the outset, from the first day of its formation. If you look at my party history, I've been incredibly loyal. I was a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, a member of the CPSU. I didn't go anywhere. I've never actually left the Communist Party. The party simply evaporated.

And now for the Reform Party: A few years ago, some conflicts and issues arose, and I left. So where else would I go? If I were to go anywhere, be it to Eesti 200 or to any other party, this would be a betrayal in a political sense.

Would you still sit with the Center Party faction?

If the faction remained, I'd stay for the time being. It's difficult to say. At the moment, the situation is that unclear. Would you have thought a year ago that Jüri Ratas, Tanel Kiik and the whole group who led the Center Party at that time, would be leaving? I wouldn't have conceived of that.

In some ways, my relations with the Center Party have been awkward. I've been a backbench player with the Center Party. I was entrusted with the 46th place on the national [electoral] list. To put it in basketball terms, for example, this is like a sports school for children, not like being a regular player. I've never been permitted to enter any serious discussion.

So leaving Center would be relatively easy and wouldn't cause you any guilt?

Oh, certainly not! I'd quote Ronald Reagan here, when said that he didn't leave the Republican Party, but that the party left him. And so it was for me.

I've expressed my opinion on the future of the Center Party in one of the first speeches following the failure of the [March 5, 2023 Riigikogu] elections. I said that there was no point in trying to bring this party back to life. It has to go direct to the cemetery,

Partly out of pity, sympathy, and simply because there's nowhere else to go, I'm marking time here. But if something more interesting comes along, then I'll certainly take it. But I'll never wish bad things on the party if they continue to function. When I get to know about anything good, then I'm always in favor of it.

What is then wrong with Mihhai Kõlvart's circle?

I honestly can't say. I really don't understand what Kõlvart's clique is all about. To be honest, I don't think he's a bad mayor whatsoever. If you look at everything that's being done here with regard to streets and roads, and what's being attempted with the plans, it's actually all quite ok. The problem is that there's no particular group backing Kõlvart.

The Center Party has not split, the Center Party has simply scattered. He hasn't divided things into two, he's divided them into 33 different people. Perhaps Kõlvart's biggest issue is that he's a very good manager and a good worker, economically speaking. But in a political sense, I can't imagine much who would be that part of the Center Party whom we could say is "team Kõlvart."

In this way, Jüri Ratas' position was significantly stronger. So just as Jüri Ratas sallied forth into the mist, so did the whole party group, with him.

If power in Tallinn were to change and a coalition was formed which included the Reform Party, Isamaa, SDE and Eesti 200, could they count on Igor Gräzin's vote?

They may count on the vote, but not necessarily on the membership. With the vote, of course. They can count on my vote even now, in some areas. But I'm not saying this about going back to the Reform Party. On this, the condition is completely different.

If the news were to come that Kaja Kallas decided to go to Europe anyway, for any position, for example as [Estonia's] commissioner at the European Commission, would the way then be clear for you?

Yes, I'd take three deep breaths and then I'd be right back in the thick of it.

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