The aim of this mini-series is to pit different parties' frontrunners against the people brining up the rear of candidate lists, as in-house competition can be fiercer than that between parties at European elections. The latter could be said of the Center Party, EKRE, Isamaa and also the Reform Party. Probably not Parempoolsed though. Your chances of getting a mandate are slim as it is, and even if you do pull it off, that mandate will go to Lavly Perling.

Lavly Perling: On the contrary, recent polls suggest Parempoolsed have a shot at a mandate. This was confirmed by experts yesterday.

Looking at our list, it has plenty of strong candidates other than yours truly. We have Rainer Saks, Ilmar Raag for security; Estonia's highest-rated climate scientist Annela Anger-Kraavi; and men and women who have built companies from scratch.

This is our chance, while the voter has the chance to leave the incumbents home, to leave the Center Party home, vote for Rainer Saks, Annela Anger-Kraavi, Kristjan Vanaselja instead of Jana Toom and Mihhail Kõlvart.

Kristjan Vanaselja, do you have anything to add, or shall I just let Lavly Perling do the talking today?

Kristjan Vanaselja: I believe that while Lavly said that we're all out to secure that mandate for Parempoolsed, there is competition inside every list. We all want to do our part and bring in votes, irrespective of whether we're third, fourth, fifth or ninth on the list. I want to prove to Lavly Perling that I'm worthy of my place on the list and bring those votes home.

How did you come up with the order of candidates? Did studies suggest you should have [security expert] Rainer Saks as your frontrunner or keep it safe and go with party leader Lavly Perling?

Vanaselja: We had long and thorough discussions on how to meet these elections.

It was difficult to try and forecast who among Parempoolsed's candidates, many of whom have not been active in politics before, could attract the most votes in European elections context.

We looked at what we wanted to achieve, which is to paint Parempoolsed as a strong ideological force. Not just to get a European Parliament mandate, but to develop Parempoolsed's ideological brand, which is why it made sense to have long-time party chair Lavly Perling top the list.

Lavly Perling, when we last spoke, I asked you whether you realized that securing an European mandate would bring Parempoolsed recognition and financial instruments while you wait for the next general election in Estonia. I suppose congratulations are in order as you have at least survived until the European elections. Support for you has been growing since the spring of 2023. Are you happy with where you are?

Perling: Of course we're happy to see Parempoolsed grow. We are getting new members and our rating is improving. It has always been the goal to build an ideological force for Estonia for decades to come.

That is what the rest of our goals are aimed at. Parempoolsed (Right-wingers – ed.) will have to be in the Riigikogu to carry out right-wing policy in Estonia after the 2027 Riigikogu elections, while we have to put in a strong local elections showing in 2025 to reach people and expand our supporter base.

But our immediate goal is to take that European Parliament mandate next week. I believe that our candidates and everyone behind them have done good work. /.../

By the way, Parempoolsed are signing up new members weekly. I'd still say that our strength lies in our strong ideological position. The right-wing voter has no other choice in Estonia today.

Should you fail to secure a mandate, you'll have a tough time moving forward after June 10 as you'll still be a non-parliamentary party despite having been on debates and getting some voter attention. Riigikogu elections are three years away, and you'll have to stay relevant without being in the parliament or holding any other political office. You'll have to put your own money and free time toward what others get paid to do. Should I bet on Perling and Vanaselja making it to elections in March 2027?

Perling: I would very much recommend betting on us. Precisely because it is our long-term goal to be the alternative for right-leaning voters in Estonia.

But three years is a very long time in politics.

Perling: We have already been around for three years.

Secondly, it's more than just a slogan that our list of candidates is one of leaders. These are people making an effort for more than just themselves, their well-being and personal standing. It's what has lent us strength and will continue to do so.

While it may be construed as weakness that we're doing it on the side so to speak, it may also be our strength. People who join us are not in it for themselves but realize that executing your policy requires you to be in power first.

/.../

Do Ilmar Raag and Rainer Saks agree? They are also playing politics on the side so to speak. For them, a shot at a European Parliament mandate might be different from waiting around three years to run in the general election. What about their preparedness and resilience?

Vanaselja: They are ready. Ilmar has run in Riigikogu elections once and has associated himself with Parempoolsed to come and stay in Estonian politics.

Will we see Ilmar Raag take up a ministerial posting should things go well?

Vanaselja: It's entirely possible.

Perling: Absolutely.

Vanaselja: We have three years until Riigikogu elections. Parempoolsed have beat other parties to defining certain topics before.

Talking about the difficult situation of the economy, which we warned of in the fall of 2022, eight quarters ago, or two months after the recession started – that we need to dial back the public sector, prepare for a protracted slump, and that getting the economy going again requires taking action post haste. Luckily, the other parties are saying it too now.

We plan to continue defining these important topics despite not being in the parliament. Draw attention to them and propose solutions others could execute.

Perling: We're doing more than just talking. We've clearly chosen the path of proposing solutions. Two years ago, we proposed an austerity plan, which was followed by a growth roadmap. We realize that cost-cutting is in order...

We'll come to all that soon. But in the three years until elections you'll become known as the party that always has something negative to say.

Perling: On the contrary, and where I wanted to end up. Looking at how we've behaved and will continue to carry ourselves.. Of course, you need to be critical of the government today.

We are among the six worst-performing economies in the world today and the poorest in Europe. It would be quite terrible if we weren't critical. But what counts is proposing right-wing solutions.

As concerns Ilmar Raag – I always like it when Parempoolsed do what we say. When Ilmar Raag said he would be joining the political fray – he is our council chair today – it means he takes being involved and having a say seriously.

As concerns the prospect of the Riigikogu or government, you may have to share a government with parties you've been critical of, including Isamaa, from which Parempoolsed broke off, and the Reform Party, both looking at losing a mandate to you. Have you considered this aspect? After all, you'll not be forming a government with Aivo Peterson (KOOS) but with parties that tend to get votes at elections.

Vanaselja: I hope that Aivo Peterson will never make the Estonian parliament.

That was a joke.

Vanaselja: You need to be ready to compromise and form coalitions in politics. But as Lavly said – we plan to call it as we see it when things are going wrong.

But have you imagined yourselves sharing a government with Isamaa?

Perling: Two keywords. Political agreements are made between people and need to be based on worldview. I think that we have enough life experience between us to know what it takes to agree in difficult situations.

That is our strength, we have members who have achieved things in life. People who are experts in their chosen field and can expand on common ground by presenting strong arguments. We have people who are willing to work together in the tensest of situations.

Our ideology is our other strength. We'll never became so amorphous as to lose sight of our principles and values.

Mark those words please.

Perling: Absolutely. Parempoolsed have the most content-rich program which will not be diluted in coalition agreements.

It is true that Estonia tends to have coalition governments. But in terms of coalition agreements, getting in a few sentences, especially if you're not the largest partner, will be tricky enough.

Now, let us presume you get a European Parliament mandate. Lavly Perling, you and your fellow Parempoolsed will have decide which European political group to join. Or have you decided?

Perling: We have chosen the European People's Party (EPP).

Vanaselja: Yes, the EPP is the closest to where we stand. It is also the largest and most influential group. Looking at other members, we have the most in common with the Finnish National Coalition Party (Kokoomus) and plan to work together in the EPP.

I read your program again before the show, and it's a liberal party's platform.

Vanaselja: It's true that it has more on liberties than on orders and bans.

So what will you be doing in the EPP?

Vanaselja: There are so-called liberal-conservatives in the EPP and other forces who want the group to represent their freedoms.

Could you give an example? I know of no such force in the EPP?

Vanaselja: As I said, Kokoomus, who are saying very similar things.

Do you speak Finnish, keep an eye on Finnish news? Are you aware of what Kokoomus have been doing over the last decade? It has nothing to do with how your program reads.

Vanaselja: Let us look at their recent steps. That parties change over time is reflected if only in Estonia's Isamaa. The things Kokoomus are saying today are very similar to our platform.

Where do you see Isamaa today then?

Vanaselja: First of all, their political decisions have put them well left of freedoms and right-wing values. If only looking at their push for benefits, the state's bigger role.

That they might be saying things similar to what we're saying does not mean any of it has been put into action. They have become far more conservative than they used to be.

Are you comparing the party today to the 1990s?

Vanaselja: I'm rather referring to the start of the previous decade.

Perling: As concerns the EPP, looking at the values side of their program, there is quite a lot of common ground, even though I admit there are also differences. /.../ No one goes to the European Parliament to get things done by themselves. It is a question of which values will you bring where and who will be your partners in building Europe's competiveness.

The other thing is what Kristjan suggested. Thinking along the lines of who to work with, strong political forces in Poland, Finland and Sweden are also influential in the EPP, and Parempoolsed see a lot of potential in working with them for the good of the region.

Coming now to your platform in slightly more detail, it's funny how quite a few parties have been throwing around the world "freedom," including, for example, the Social Democrats. While you also talk a lot about freedoms, which is a nice value-based slogan to have, it is clear that neither in Estonia nor in the European Parliament can you just propose rephrasing or even throwing out the green transition. It is unrealistic.

Perling: On the contrary, values are what you represent. Like we describe our path of five freedoms, starting with security. We describe the green topics as the freedom to take care of what's ours.

We should lift some restrictions for forest owners and pay them fair compensation for use of their property, do I have it right?

Perling: Absolutely. Talking about ownership, it is one thing Parempoolsed want to protect. Everyone who owns land knows that taking care of a bird's nest or the habitat of a rare species is easier for the landowner than it is for the state or local government. The latter can sometimes lay down harebrained restrictions. That is just one example.

What we will be representing in Europe is what we represent in Estonia. That the people make better decisions than the state. We need fewer restrictions, not more. That owners make better decisions than officials. It is a principled matter. These freedoms are at risk in Europe and Estonia.

First, there is full-scale war in Europe. Secondly, rules and bureaucracy coming not just from Europe but also Estonia – it's killing our economy. Also as concerns personal freedoms, there are constant attempts to chip away at them. Those are the principles the Parempoolsed oppose.

This practice of chipping away at personal freedoms took off during the coronavirus pandemic, and I still feel we haven't gotten all of our liberties back yet. Had you been in charge, would you have made vaccination certificates and wearing a mask mandatory for everyone in 2020-2022?

Perling: I think we shouldn't indulge in ifs and buts.

It is nevertheless my question. I'm sure you had a position?

Perling: Hindsight is 20/20. Having had to weigh freedoms practically my entire life (Lavly Perling used to serve as Estonia's prosecutor general – ed.), and in very complicated situations, I always sided with more freedom. That's my answer. I hope it's also one of the party's strengths. I believe Parempoolsed would have sided with personal freedoms.

We could see panic during the coronavirus period. The same panic we can see in the government regarding the economy, that people do not understand how the state functions, while the latter has lost faith in its people.

That is the main difference – who makes better choices for keeping themselves and their children healthy. Whether it's people or whether we lay down absurd rules.

I tuned in to the ETV environmental issues debate where your representative Annela Anger-Kraavi stood out next to the Greens' delegate in being the only two parties not sharing in the responsibility for saddling Estonian taxpayers with these obligations decided somewhere in Europe, without really explaining it to the public.

It's very convenient for you to say today that "we would not have done it," but how do you know? For example, I would not have believed back in 2014 that the Reform Party would sign off on such obligations, but they did.

Perling: For three reasons. It's why Parempoolsed are building a new party. We also haven't become complacent as people.

Do you know how difficult it is to be attending a Council session with 27 other ministers plus officials? They are from much larger states than Estonia and all seem to agree, while you'll have to stand up and say why it's not a good fit for us.

Perling: I have been at some pretty big tables in terms of international cooperation. I have been a member of joint investigation teams where the interests of large states clash. Others beside me have that experience at Parempoolsed. I know how to build and expand on common ground behind a big negotiating table.

Sometimes it is not possible to expand common ground. Sometimes you just have to disagree.

Perling: Then you disagree. Looking at the recent situation, our main criticism of our MEPs is that Estonia's interests are not sufficiently protected. They appear in the public eye just to disappear again right away. We just don't know what they are doing there, how they're protecting ordinary Estonians or our competitive ability.

Vanaselja: How about we take a broader look for a moment. It has been realized in Europe that this kind of planned economy or socialist approach...

That's just for European Parliament elections. It'll pass.

Vanaselja: I would say that this composition of the European Parliament will perhaps take the Green Deal apart. It is already happening as the goals we're supposed to hit by certain deadlines are being revised.

Listen, what difference does it make whether we ban internal combustion engines in cars by 2035 or 2040? It still amounts to taking away people's choice.

Vanaselja: Yes, I agree. The question is how we're going about it. What will be the development. Whether it will happen naturally or based just on orders and bans so to speak.

Let us come to Estonian topics for a bit, as many will probably base their decisions on local affairs rather than what's happening in Europe.

Our biggest public debate concerns the budget, taxes. The government has been talking about budget cuts for a year. There was minor austerity last year, while another €100 million has been earmarked in cuts in a situation where the deficit is around €2 billion or more, coming to 5 percent of GDP next year. At the same time, the economy is shrinking. The recent [growth] figures are in the red again. It is a complicated situation. There is no silver bullet solution which the ruling parties just fail to see. What would yo do?

Perling: If the good host said that the government has been talking about budget cuts, Parempoolsed proposed a clear austerity plan two years ago. It was clear from data and what was happening elsewhere in the world, and thirdly...

Be more specific.

Perling: The austerity plan – we've been clear. We are talking about three principles. First, all these indexed expenses need to be unindexed.

Pensions and benefits?

Perling: Absolutely. All blanket subsidies should be abolished. It should have been done by now. Second, we're still talking about freezing public sector expenses. Parempoolsed have clearly said that we need to go back to 2019 in terms of our state budget.

Have you read the explanatory memo of the state budget recently? I read it yesterday. It is completely opaque. You can't even pinpoint where costs could be cut. Do you have a position on that?

Perling: Yes, we do. The third thing we've proposed is dialing back and laying off officials. Putting all three steps together... [Cutting] €175 million is a joke at the end of the day in the conditions of a deficit of €2.2 billion. The first stage is to draw up a negative supplementary budget right away. The second is the new state budget in August by which time a billion would need to be trimmed. From there we would need a revenue or activities audit for the entire public sector. We need to be able to give up some activities.

Sure, but if you cut billions from the expenses side of the budget, you'll just be empowering the recession.

Perling: No, we wouldn't. Because Parempoolsed have also proposed an economic growth plan, next to our austerity plan. As you cut on one hand, you have to...

How should the economy be made to grow again?

Perling: It is not something the public sector can do alone. Once more, there are three simple principles. We need peace in business so to speak, because talking to investors and entrepreneurs, they'll tell you that they won't invest in Estonia. Money will not be coming here because our house is not in order.

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