Let us start with your personal ratings. It's also why we have invited the first and last names on parties' tickets, as European Parliament elections are largely individual in nature. Unlike Riigikogu elections where delegates are determined largely based on the order of candidates on parties' lists, individual votes decide matters at European elections. In other words, if party leader and the first name on the ticket Martin Helme gets fewer votes than last place man Jaak Madison, it is the latter who will be going to the European Parliament.

Looking at the polls from Norstat and Kantar Emor, commissioned by the Institute for Societal Studies and ERR respectively, both suggest Jaak Madison's popularity is roughly double that of Martin Helme's.

Helme: There have been various polls and I suppose we have to believe what they say. Though not necessarily. But the other thing they say is that we are close to landing two seats. It hinges on things that we do not know yet, such as voter turnout, how active conservative voters will be, and how many candidates' votes will miss the threshold. But landing two seats is possible and what we're aiming for. That is the reason why we set up our list of candidates in this way, and I believe we'll continue to chase two seats until election day.

Jaak Madison, you are among the three most popular candidates [in Estonia]. Only Marina Kaljurand (SDE) and Urmas Paet (Reform) have more potential backers. What have you done right to be twice or even three times as popular as your party leader?

Madison: First, let me say that the election is 20 days away, and I do not wish to remain in third place. But we'll catch up to Marina, because [during] the most active TV campaign period, where people will be shown who really represent Estonia's interests in Brussels and Strasbourg, they are the Conservative People's Party's (EKRE) candidates, including myself. Looking back at the last five years, I dare say I'm the only one of seven [Estonian] delegates who has tried to give feedback from day one, keep my voters and future voters, as well as possible opponents and adversaries, informed in terms of what we're doing in Brussels.

Because it tends to be the same pattern following European elections where we elect seven dwarves for five years who then disappear into the depths only to emerge again, carrying pens and balloons, a month before the next election, asking to be reelected. But what those people spent the last five years doing, no one knows.

I believe that communication and keeping our voters informed of what we're doing, what are the matters at hand and how votes and debates turn out – I believe it has been crucial in letting voters know why they elected the people they elected and what the latter's job entails. When the next election rolls around, voters can decide whether they're satisfied with what you've achieved over five years or whether you need to be replaced. Recent polls, whereas you can never really rely on polls, at least suggest this has been the case, and I am very grateful to all my voters.

Helme: What I wanted to add is that one reason our delegate has been visible and popular – which is also reflected in the current elections – over the last five years is that we stand out in European Parliament politics. We're not just peons voting in whatever is required in the service of the so-called European agenda. Our party is clearly opposed to what is being done in Brussels in some matters, and that is what sets us apart. It shows in our work, and I believe it also shows in our campaign.

Still, to match Urmas Paet's rating, we would need to pool yours. Does that mean Urmas Paet is better at something than the two of you combined?

Madison: It would be very interesting to see a debate with Kaljurand and Paet both present. The topics could include slashing large families' benefits, the car tax as well as excise duty, VAT and land tax hikes – we have over 500,000 people who own land and property, all of whom the Reform Party and the Social Democrats want to take to the cleaners by way of taxation. What would those two candidates have to say and would their support ratings remain the same after the debate? They've undoubtedly been visible in foreign and security policy matters, while they've wisely kept silent on what their parties – which are now looking to have them reelected to Brussels and Strasbourg – have been doing back home, which amounts to ruining Estonia's economic and family policies. We should ask those people where they really stand, and their support ratings would melt like spring snow.

Helme: I'm not even sure we know what Marina Kaljurand or Urmas Paet think about security and other matters. They've simply been away, and the key to their political capital has been to avoid taking a stand in complicated matters and just safely shining whenever a convenient opportunity presents itself.

I would remind voters that Urmas Paet and Marina Kaljurand are still members of parties that, after promising to keep pensions tax free and God knows what else, are on course to slash pensions through income tax and indexation changes. And rewarding them for this course amounts to permitting the parties to keep treating voters much as they have. I'm always told that domestic politics should not be taken to Europe, but the very same parties are responsible for domestic politics, including Kaljurand and Paet.

Do I have it right that Martin Helme, while looking to get elected to the European Parliament, just suggested voters are stupid?

No. I simply wish to remind voters that what they were promised last time has turned out to be a lie, while the same people are now back to sell them on more of the same. Voters are not stupid, but the average voter does not keep up with every single political debate, nor are they obligated to remember everything from two or five years ago, which is when the competition can help them remember.

I wanted to ask Martin Helme whether Jaak Madison falls into the same category of very popular MEPs who are now looking to get reelected as Marina Kaljurand and Urmas Paet?

Helme: On the contrary. What I said was that Jaak has brought back information on what he is doing there. Jaak has represented the party's position, made sure it stands out – these are two very different models of success.

And if you pointed out before that Paet is as popular as Jaak and I are put together, we must ask whether the Reform Party has any other strong candidates? They don't!

Well, the polls suggest that Hanno Pevkur and Marko Mihkelson are doing quite well, and one of them could land a mandate if Paet puts in a strong showing.

Helme: Perhaps.

Madison: When I suggested before that it is relatively easy to be popular in foreign and security policy by using simple sentences to promote simple positions – to jog the memory of voters a little more, it was Urmas Paet who actively sought visa freedom with Russia.

When might that have been?

Madison: We had been independent for just 15 years before we started seeking visa freedom with Russia. Historical experience and perception are short indeed.

Helme: The same goes for the border treaty.

Madison: And the border treaty. Just as the Social Democratic Party, represented by Marina Kaljurand, is currently fighting tooth and nail for Russian citizens to keep their voting rights in Estonia. The same party that recently wanted to appoint a Kremlin agent as the district elder of Lasnamäe.

These people represent parties that have repeatedly flirted with the Russian Federation over the years. This raises the question of their competence when it comes to any aspect of foreign and security policy. That is why the memory of voters needs to be jogged on the regular, since we all tend to forget things.

Having squared that away, let us come to the differences between you two. I'm sure you would agree that at elections such as those of the European Parliament the competition is fiercest inside parties? It is fierce enough between you two as you are both aiming for a seat. I believe that claims according to which you'll secure two mandates fall on the overly optimistic side, and that your one mandate will go to Jaak Madison in the end. But based on what should existing EKRE voters choose between Martin Helme and Jaak Madison?

Helme: Well, Jaak is a little taller than I am. Joking aside, what I tell voters when they tell me that they don't want me to leave Estonia is that I will not be disappearing from Estonian life. The way the European Parliament works is that you have to spend a lot of time in your home country or region. And the fact that most of our MEPs, as Jaak put it before, kind of disappear into the Brussels fog for five years tells us a thing or two about their work ethic. I will not be disappearing from Estonia, nor will I give up running the party.

Another thing that needs to be said is that I have developed excellent professional relationships with heads of all other conservative parties in Europe, which definitely counts as a strength. Another is that I have been a member of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council (ECOFIN).

Those are hardly major differences. I'm sure that Jaak Madison also has a good working relationship with other nationalist parties. Or am I mistaken? My question was about differences. Why, as an EKRE voter, should I vote for Martin Helme if he himself says that Jaak Madison has done a good job?

Helme: What can I say expect that it comes down to personal preference.

We'll come to that in a minute. But let's have Jaak Madison say a few words in terms of the differences between him and Martin Helme. I'm sure there are some.

Madison: There are, of course, while I also believe it boils down to a matter of taste in the end. Looking at the big picture, we both represent the party's positions in Europe-wide matters. Whether it's green extremism, the pressure for common taxes, centralized migration policy – our stance is the same regarding all of these issues. I can bet you that we'd vote the same way 95 percent of the time in Strasbourg.

It is often a matter of political taste at the end of the day. I believe that a lot of my voters would like me to continue my active efforts. And I can promise that I will not go anywhere – I will continue to be as active and represent the same positions for the next five years. But in the end, people can vote for who they like, be it Martin or Jaak, Monika (Helme) or Rain (Epler).

​Helme: As long as they vote EKRE. That is the most important thing!

​Good, it's a matter of taste then, you both agree. Let us talk about taste. From where I'm standing, Martin Helme comes off a true-blue national conservative: family values, the works. But looking at Jaak Madison and reading about you in the media at least, one is left with the impression that you are a very socially liberal person.

Madison: Well, I'm sure you know that the conservatives are the true liberals. We stand for human rights and freedoms, including free speech. We stand for freedom of movement so to speak, thinking back to the COVID period when the seemingly liberal closed all doors. What is conservative and what is liberal has become muddled indeed in recent decades, where those looking to lay down the new hate speech law claim to be liberal while trying to introduce censorship.

Are there differences in the party when it comes to defining conservatism and liberalism?

Madison: We have 10,000 members.

I mean between you two.

Helme: What Jaak means to say is that what was referred to as liberalism 50 years ago, is today... (is interrupted by the host – ed.)

I'd stick with family values. I believe that no one will argue if I say that Martin Helme is representing very traditional family values, is a married man.

Helme: We celebrated our 23rd wedding anniversary on Saturday. We have five kids.

I believe Jaak Madison is not married.

Madison: Not yet.

There can be all kinds of relationships, including very open ones. I take it that Martin Helme has voiced his concerns?

Madison: I would take this moment to remind people that reading the media is a good way to be duped.

Still, I don't think you're refuting what I suggested?

Madison: I am not married, no. Martin has been married for 23 years. It's a fact.

What about personal values?

Madison: In the end, what often matters to voters are your political positions, where you stand in terms of the nation state. While some voters find it very important whether you're married or not, others find it less important, and it comes down to who you want to vote for. It is what it is.

Helme: I would also say that there are double standards at play here. Had something like that happened to liberals or social democrats, no one would care – neither their voters nor the press.

I disagree. When another person currently running for European Parliament, who represents a liberal party, was involved in a far more complicated scandal, the media talked about it for weeks. I'm referring to Marko Mihkelson.

Madison: That was serious business.

Helme: It was serious business that was very brutally covered up I would say. It is something that should have ended in criminal proceedings.

But coming back to your differences, do you treat social conservatism or social liberalism differently on a personal level?

Helme: I'll say that Jaak and I talked about it, we have discussed it in the board, I have said my piece and will not be lingering on the matter.

Did you advise Madison to marry?

Helme: Yes. Let us say I urged him to have his social life reflect the party's core values.

And what did you promise?

Madison: I haven't promised anything. I believe that questions about a person's personal life are all well and good for tabloids. But there has been no real problem here. And as far as comparisons with Marko Mihkelson's possible perversions go, there has not been a police investigation in my case. The police simply binned the false report.

Has the complaint gotten anywhere in Brussels?

Madison: No, it was thrown out.

Are you sure?

Madison: Positive!

It is not being processed?

Madison: No! It's come to nothing, killed, ended! It is a false complaint and claim, a misinformation campaign before elections, there can be no question!

I'm asking because the public's information is that the police are still working on the case.

Madison: They are not.

Have you received official confirmation?

Madison: They won't comment on things they're not processing. Usually, when a complaint is lodged, the Belgian police works the same as in Estonia – procedural acts need to be launched inside ten days and the sides notified in the process. And there's nothing.

But when I'll get married is, of course, my business. In the end, it's not the business of voters or anyone else for that matter, to put it amicably.

Let's get back to public matters. The Conservative People's Party is set to elect a new board and chairman immediately after European elections. Do I have it right?

Helme: Yes, it's our annual congress. All positions on all management levels are elective with a one-year cycle, starting at the grass roots and running from departments, through regional levels to the board and chairman.

Will you run for chairman again?

Helme: Absolutely.

Jaak Madison, I believe you are a member of the board?

Madison: I am!

Will you also run again?

Madison: I'll see how the mood strikes me.

That's an interesting answer.

Madison: I'll run.

What about for chairman?

Madison: No.

You're sure but have no reason?

Madison: The reason is that I believe the current chairman has shown that he can boost the party's rating enough for us to win the general election and form the next government. Why disrupt it by muddying the waters let's say. I believe that I will concentrate on getting more votes than Marina Kaljurand at European elections, so we could say that EKRE's candidate was the most popular, and on my work in the European Parliament.

Will you consider it a failure if that doesn't happen?

Madison: I will not. Do you know how much lawn there is to mow right now? I did nothing but mow the lawn from morning to eve yesterday.

Helme: Stop, Anvar. The media is trying to sell the narrative that it will be a disaster if EKRE cannot land two seats.

I have not made the suggestion. But Jaak Madison just said he wants to get more votes than Marina Kaljurand for a quantifiable goal. I was just asking about it.

Helme: One needs ambition. You should always want more than what seems easily attainable at the time. Going in the other direction would amount to taking the easy way out.

Coming now to Jaak Madison's praise for the party leader. If I'm being honest then looking from the sidelines, Martin Helme does not seem to have been as successful as Jaak Madison seems to think. While the party's rating remains relatively high, it is only enough for third place, and, according to some polls, on par with the coalition Social Democratic Party's and way behind Reform and Isamaa. This has not always been the case, and there was a time when EKRE was the most popular political force in Estonia.

Helme: There was indeed, and the situation is not one we can be satisfied with. It means that we need to work to restore our position. I don't really consider polls that have us in third or fourth place to be accurate, while it absolutely mystifies me how the prime minister's party (Reform), following the Russia business scandal, after sinking the Estonian economy and about to de facto slash pensions is moving up in the polls.

That sounds a bit like the prime minister herself, who also says she cannot understand a number of things.

Helme: Yes. I've spent a long time in politics, I can read the political landscape and poll results, and it just doesn't make sense.

You say that you can read the political landscape and know politics. Tell me whether you think that your brand of blinkers on, utterly uncompromising obstruction policy (in the Riigikogu – ed.), regarding which you've been very consistent, has yielded the desired result? Looking from the sidelines, it rather seems it has pushed some of your supporters away.

Helme: But you don't know what we were after. Had we been after points in the polls, perhaps things would have turned out differently. But Riigikogu elections are almost three years away, while local elections are not for a year and a half. We needed to show how the liberals are breaking the law, steamrolling democracy and parliamentarism. And we did! We also needed to show that we can't be bought with minor amendments, and that we stand firm behind what we say.

Don't you get the feeling that while you saw your demonstration through, your potential backers found it a little too county fair and threw their lot in with another party?

Helme: Yes, and we all know where they went. They support Isamaa today. But they will undoubtedly be disappointed in Isamaa again, and sooner rather than later! I'm not worried.

Aren't you afraid of becoming the permanent opposition?

Helme: Absolutely not. Let us hark back to 2015-2017 and EKRE peaking at first 7 percent, then 10 percent and 15 percent after that. They'll never make the government – and then we did! Our rating also matched Isamaa's recent 27 percent for a while. Isamaa have taken 5-7 percentage points from us right now, but it will soon move back to our column. People have asked me whether it is embarrassing when Jaak Madison gets more votes than I do. At the same time, [Isamaa leader] Urmas Reinsalu is flanked by former Social Democrat Urve Palo on one hand and by a former Centrist on the other – he's singing their praises while standing to get fewer votes himself, whereas no one is asking him whether he's embarrassed.

It's not really a party. It is some kind of new Res Publica made up of everyone who's willing and saying precisely what the polls suggest might yield short-term gain. It will end in disaster and tears, as it has always done, and their voters will return to us.

Jaak Madison, you attended the Türi Flower Fair over the weekend. Political parties were in attendance too. Were you perchance approached by a voter who told you that while you've appeared strong in the opposition, that is where you will remain?

Madison: There are voters who walk up to you to suggest that doing some things differently would help you win the elections and come to power.

Should some things be done differently?

Madison: There are always those... I'd say that things can always be done better. I can also work harder in the European Parliament, be even clearer and more constructive. There's always room for improvement! But taking advice you're given at a country fair for doing certain things... there have been so many such cases over the years. And to think that we'd start listening to these individual suggestions as as party... By all means, create your own political party. If you're convinced a particular strategy can win the elections – sign up 500 members, form your own party and win the elections. It is always subjective what's wrong and what's right. What are polls and ratings really worth? For example, Isamaa is a potential coalition partner for us. Our biggest problem is with the Reform Party, the Social Democrats and the Reform appendage that's Eesti 200. What good is a 30 percent rating when the elections are still three years away? Absolutely none. You feel good about yourself, but that's about it!

Let us also cover a few European Parliament elections topics. One such issue is security policy, and while the European Parliament does not have too much say in these matters, it still plays an important role. Jaak Madison, I take it you are quite clearly in favor of more support for Ukraine?

Madison: In the broad strokes, yes. The question is always who's paying and doing the donating. And I have said many times over the past five years that words are not enough when it comes to support for Ukraine. Everyone likes to talk about everything they're doing, but if we look at the facts, France has only given Ukraine around €600 million worth of weaponry. The same goes for Spain, which recently held the EU presidency.

But Martin Helme, you have been a little more restrained when it comes to Ukraine. Have you taken a different view?

Helme: It has been our position from the first that, of course, we support Ukraine. The West needs to support Ukraine's struggle for independence. But there are two major caveats. First, that Estonia can only do so within our means. We cannot send more aid than we can afford, we cannot accept more immigrants than we can afford or donate money we cannot afford to donate. Our budget is headed for bankruptcy and a large part of the reason is that [Prime Minister] Kaja Kallas (Reform) wants to be able to report that she is giving the most money to Ukraine.

The second thing we agreed in the party right away is that support for Ukraine does not mean the government is beyond criticism regarding its Ukraine policy, foreign or security policy. If we see that our weapons and ammunition are given away leaving us with nothing, it must be criticized, even though we will be criticized for our criticism. The government cannot hide its poor policies behind Ukraine.

Finally, let us talk about the green transition. I tuned in to the ETV elections debate Tuesday evening, and it made for ugly viewing if I'm being honest. Not because of the hosts, but candidates. And do you know the saddest part – it's that all parties, with the possible exception of the non-parliamentary Parempoolsed and Greens, share in the responsibility for where we have ended up, including EKRE.

Helme: I disagree. Let me remind you. [European Commission President] Ursula von der Leyen started working on her Green Deal in 2020. All member states agreed and we included especially stringent conditions. That transport links must not be cut, that agriculture must not suffer etc. They were very strict conditions. They also included that member states would retain the right to decide how certain things should be achieved. And those conditions largely made it in there. Alright, Jüri Ratas dialed back some of it, but basically, the conditions we put in there are not being heeded today. Of course, it must also be said that the green transition was discussed on a completely abstract level at the time.

That is simply not true!

Helme: It was said that we'll need certain things to be a certain way by 2050, but we never signed off on what we are seeing today where we have seven different trash containers because Brussels said so!

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