Riho Terras, was Jüri Ratas' addition to Isamaa's list of candidates a source of great frustration for you? He could end up walking away with your mandate.

Riho Terras: It was not.

Other delegates told me that you looked quite worried on the plane ride over.

Terras: Perhaps I look worried when thinking about a lot of things. But this particular development hasn't really affected me. And I believe it is important for Isamaa to secure at least two seats in the European Parliament. Ratas' coming has increased that chance.

What would the situation be like were Jüri Ratas the frontrunner and you the number nine instead?

Terras: Had it happened, it would have deserved thinking about. As things are, I don't see much sense in analyzing it.

A good part of campaigning is already behind us. What would have been different for you had your places been reversed, Jüri Ratas?

Jüri Ratas: First of all, I did not join Isamaa to haggle over candidate list positions.

I'm sure you did nevertheless.

Ratas: I believe you were not present for the talks.

While I was not, I'm pretty sure this matter was discussed.

Ratas: What was discussed was how it was important for me to contribute to the European Parliament elections campaign, be on the list. The matter of where on the list did not come up. It was based on my values, and since my previous party and I grew apart, the way I was brought up was always very patriotic.

When you asked Riho about whether he's worried... This is not the first time we've worked together. We also worked well together when Riho was EDF commander and I served as prime minister. I remember when we went to Mali together for Operation Barkhane. So we've worked together in previous jobs. And I value Riho's European Parliament contribution greatly. He is surely a deserving frontrunner for Isamaa, and I completely agree with the good general in that Isamaa is making an effort today to land two seats.

In terms of what makes politicians worried, whether on a plane or when meeting people, is the state the Estonian economy finds itself in. The coping of the Estonian people. And our security situation in Europe.

Polls suggest you're both among favorites and have a good chance of making the European Parliament. Isamaa leader Urmas Reinsalu is also popular. Do you travel together or are you pursuing two totally different campaigns?

Terras: We do everything one does when campaigning, mainly go from place to place.

Do you do it separately or together?

Terras: We are a group, we also feature on some of the same posters, but we travel separately for greater efficiency.

I have to admit that the first concern people have today is security, followed by their financial situation. The government has put the Estonian economy on par with that of Yemen. We'll need to do something about it. Time will tell how this can be achieved.

Looking at the polls, Riho Terras, what has Jüri Ratas done to achieve such a spike in popularity?

Terras: He is simply very skilled in social media. I believe it benefits Isamaa a great deal when someone has such a knack for social media visibility. Ratas' success also rests on his clear messages.

Ratas: If I may comment in brief. First, as concerns the polls. I have been in politics for over 20 years. While politicians do keep an eye on ratings, they're like yesterday's news for me. Today, we need to work for the present and future. I agree with Riho in that we work for the same values and principles. The European Commission just finished its 2024 economic forecast for all 27 member states. And Estonia is, unfortunately, the only country there on course for recession at -0.5 percent. Isamaa sees that relevant domestic decisions could and should have been different.

In terms of what I've been doing, I was in Paide and Türi yesterday. People ask us to fight for them and improve their ability to cope. It is clear that €40 does not buy what it used to a year ago, and it can be put in European Parliament elections context.

Let's stay on you and your campaigns. My kids said yesterday that everywhere they look on social media, they see Jüri Ratas. Your social media presence is impressive. How much has it cost you? What's the ballpark? Are we talking about hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of euros?

Ratas: To talk about social media advertising, there's more of it today than there was six months ago. But it's definitely not in the tens of thousands. All told, it's more than €1,000 by now, which needs to be declared. The news have also treated with how much Urmas Reinsalu and I have paid for social media advertising. I agree that social media is an important medium, but it has never been the main thing for me. The most important thing is meeting people in the flesh and really talking with them. People clearly over the age of 60 came up to me in Paide, Põltsamaa and Türi and told me that they keep up with me on social media and that I should keep it up. I think it's good when people get their information from various sources.

Riho Terras, how much have you spent and what is the budget?

Terras: The British say that you do not talk about money in civilized company. But I'm sure expenses reports will provide a clear picture of who spent how much and where. Meeting people is just as important in my book. For example, I visited with potato farmer and chairman of the Estonian Farmers Union Kalle Hamburg yesterday, spoke at the Kohila School. I'll head for Hiiumaa, Saaremaa and Muhumaa tomorrow. I've been to Valga and Võru. I meet a lot of people, a lot of farmers, and I listen to their concerns.

The farmers' problems are acute. Farmers in Estonia are impacted by Europe's green reforms. Domestic food production has become so expensive that food processors are closing shop one after the other. It cannot be sustainable in the long run. Food security is the most important thing after physical security, and life in rural areas is also a security matter. Life in Võru and Valga is part of security. These are the things I hear from people and can raise in the European Parliament, things I have and will continue to raise.

Permit me a question about a van before we wrap up the advertising topic. Driving down Pirita tee, I see Jüri Ratas' advertising van parked near the Memorial to Victims of Communism one morning and near Russalka the next. Who moves the van? Do you do it yourself or do you have help?

Ratas: I've moved the van several times, though I believe these images are from a few weeks ago. I have use of the van. It was in Jõgeva and Tartu counties yesterday and is in Tallinn today.

You drive it to Jõgeva and then to Rapla from there? Is that how it works?

Ratas: I had the van all to myself yesterday to attend meetings in Rapla. Next came Järva and Jõgeva counties and finally Tartu County.

It's up to the voter to decide who to send to Europe. You mentioned party leader Urmas Reinsalu. Every one of the nine people making up Isamaa's list, and they include men and women as well as political newcomers, and the party chairman are making an effort today. I've worked with Urmas Reinsalu as prime minister when he served as foreign minister and justice minister. But my greatest desire is for Estonia to get a new government and prime minister, and I believe Urmas Reinsalu deserves the latter office.

That will not be happening during the time of this Riigikogu.

Ratas: We need to face the facts and parliamentary mathematics that give the Reform Party 37 plus one seats today. And we're very unlikely to see a new prime minister come from any other party. That said, I do believe we will get a new prime minister in the coming months as Kaja Kallas will go after a job for herself during the next European Council meeting or the one after that. Which is how it should be.

At European Parliament elections, people vote based on one's experience and the ability to make it in Europe as well as reputation back home. I believe Isamaa has a lot of dignified candidates who meet these criteria.

Jüri Ratas has been an Isamaa member for a very short time. Riho Terras, who do you see voting for Jüri Ratas? Will he bring his former fans from his days at the Center Party with him, or will he take away some of your voters? Who is Ratas' voter?

Ratas: An Isamaa voter is Jüri Ratas' voter today. No matter who they are. Everyone on Isamaa's list are out there catching votes for the party. I've only been an Isamaa member for five years myself. Secondly, Jüri Ratas' years of experience have shaped his constituents. I would not look for agendas in terms of who is taking away whose votes.

Everyone must work to make sure Isamaa voters turn up to put the ruling coalition in its place, tell them what they're doing is wrong. For Isamaa to win this election and get two European Parliament seats where we can put our skills to use for Estonia.

In terms of mine... When I first joined the European Parliament, I decided to be less vocal on national defense as I had been in it for long years. I got up to speed with agriculture, worked in the Industry, Research and Energy Committee, which was very exciting, while also keeping up with the defense industry. Today, when there's war, my biggest strength is that I can explain to my colleagues, especially German colleagues in the European People's Party (EPP), which is the biggest group, what is really happening in Ukraine. I appear in German media, I've appeared on Germany's so-called public media talk shows in order to tell Germans – friends, there's war, and it's not just our war, it's everyone's war. That is what I can do and plan on doing moving forward.

Ratas: If I may add. I wholeheartedly agree with Riho and as an Isamaa candidate, seeing as voter turnout has traditionally been low [for European elections] and will be lower than for national elections also this time, please come out and support us!

Young people might not turn out to vote, and your supporters include quite a lot of young people.

Ratas: It's always difficult to say who one's supporters are. I think I've been in Estonian politics 23-24 years. I have supporters in different age groups. So I'm not afraid of appearing before working people, the elderly or young people. I believe or at least hope that I have supporters in all groups.

But what I wanted to say about domestic policy considerations. It's said that we shouldn't mix domestic policy and EU elections. But if we look at the Reform Party for a moment, when MEP Andrus Ansip (Reform) criticized government policy and Prime Minister Kaja Kallas (Reform), he was told off and will not be running in the elections. At the same time, Urmas Paet (Reform) has not criticized these policies and he tops Reform's list of candidates today. This shows that standing behind the candidates are the same political parties that are active in Estonia today, the ones in the coalition – the Reform Party, Social Democratic Party and Eesti 200.

Riho Terras, you are standing next to the person who signed the green transition agreement. Everything we're discussing, where to find money for LULUCF, all these other climate targets were agreed by Jüri Ratas as prime minister. You've been fighting against it in the European Parliament. How does that make you feel?

Terras: I completely disagree here. I've never fought it, and people who suggest I'm against a cleaner environment are putting words in my mouth. The agreements need to be complied with. What I oppose is using orders and planned economy measures to do it.

It was clear when the agreement was passed that it could only be done in the conditions of planned economy. Markets do not work so quickly as to allow us to achieve these things by 2035.

Terras: That is just not true. The U.S. has shown that it is possible to plot a green transition course by subsidizing modern technologies. Instead of ordering people to insulate their houses by a certain date. And then you realize that it would cost €25 billion for all 25,000 households affected to insulate their buildings, while the subsidy for it comes to a billion or less. We don't have enough money to do it.

Did Jüri Ratas do the right thing by signing the agreement pledging climate neutrality by 2050?

Terras: Yes, it needs to be our goal. Most definitely. You cannot hit ambitious goals without first setting them. But our methods of getting there must not create more red tape, resemble planned economy and lack effects analysis. It is obvious that the measures pushed through using the votes of social democrats and greens, including the Estonian Social Democrats, will not work. Such as banning internal combustion engines from 2035 or the energy performance directive in question. Or all this agricultural legislation. When I asked the social democrat responsible for this field in the committee whether effects have been analyzed, I was told that you cannot put on a revolution with effects analyses. It concerned the farm to fork strategy specifically. This shows that no one has crunched the numbers for how much it will cost us and what will be its impact on Europe's competitiveness.

Jüri Ratas, I'm sure you'll be asked why you decided to sign the agreement for many years to come.

Ratas: In short, it's because I thought it was the right thing to do. The EU would never have agreed on the 2050 target had all 27 member states not agreed in 2019. They did. We had the coalition government of Isamaa, EKRE and the Center Party at the time. Do I believe it is the right thing? Of course I do. And the steps we've agreed for 2030 are feasible for Estonia.

But from there, having a goal is not the same as being on an expressway to get absolutely everything done. On the contrary. Today, we must boldly say it when we do not agree with something. Take the renovation thing, which I've heard Riho talk about in interviews, is it important? I would say it's extremely important, while it must not be laid on the shoulders of residents and apartment associations. That is where we need to use our experience from the European Parliament, Commission and Council to say that Estonia needs support from the EU. While renovation of buildings will translate into smaller heating bills eventually, it is also important from the point of view of the environment. So I would not equate these goals with the so-called green frenzy. We need to come back from there and meet in the middle. The green frenzy cannot be allowed to shut down our economy and impact people's subsistence.

The main question for Estonia will be energy, electricity, its sources. It requires several things today. It requires a third energy link with Finland, the Estlink-3; we also need to work with TalTech and other universities toward carbon capture, which is already happening to some degree. But we also need courage for the government to move forward with the Paldiski pumped storage plant. We need a more versatile mix of energy.

Allow me to round out the environmental chapter with a major issue Riho has also pointed to – the sheer amount of bureaucracy coming from Europe, also for the agricultural sector. The new application round kicked off this Monday. It has been made so complicated, administrative. Fail to tick a single box and you can basically kiss your subsidies goodbye. Estonia must stand up for its principles also in this regard.

Let us also talk about Riho Terras' work. You've opposed the energy performance directive and failed to show up for the final vote.

Terras: I was there for the floor vote.

Jana Toom told me...

Jana Toom makes false claims.

Did you make any proposals in the committee?

Terras: Absolutely, I proposed throwing out the directive.

Any others?

Terras: No, because it was not necessary. It was nonsense forced on us from the first. Jana is talking nonsense. I was opposed to it all along. The EPP was largely opposed. We lost by a few votes. So it's all nonsense.

It is difficult for us to judge from Tallinn how active or successful you are over there [in the European Parliament]. But reports make for one quantifiable thing. And here Jana Toom is on top with 22 reports. Jaak Madison and Urmas Paet are signatories on around a dozen, while you only have three to your name.

Terras: I did a few at first, while I soon realized there was nothing there and decided to pick a different one. I spent a year and a half working on the pan-European electronic identity, I was involved with the artificial intelligence report as the EPP's deputy coordinator. It took a lot of energy. While Jana Toom may have a lot of reports, they are mostly on defending the rights of Russian citizens, which have almost no bearing on processes. There is also the fact that it is difficult to get important reports in large groups, you need to fight for them. We have 178 people who all want reports.

I secured a very important report in the defense industry roadmap as it is. I also had to collect so-called points and had agreements in place that I would be working on the report. But it arrived too late and will land in the new Parliament.

At the same time, I was closely involved with Ukraine. I've definitely written the most letters to the Commission, pointing to important topics for Estonia's and global security. Over 100 delegates have endorsed those letters. I'm in the support for Ukraine group, U.S. cooperation group. I also support Estonian hunters by being a member of the hunting group where I've had to do a lot of work. Those accusing me of not doing enough can just look at my track record.

I'm sure you didn't come here to pose as twin brothers who see eye to eye on everything. What are the fundamental differences between you? In tax policy, for example. Jüri Ratas has been a proponent of progressive income tax for years. Are you one too?

Terras: No.

What else? Jüri Ratas has been a member of the Center Party, and the Center Party has addressed the concerns of Russian-speaking people in Estonia. You have not. How else are you different?

Terras: I cannot say. Isamaa has agreed on a program for these European elections. The party and its nine candidates have all contributed to it. We all agree to these items.

I'm deeply convinced that taxation needs to be up to member states, and we shouldn't even discuss some of it moving into the hands of the EU, which is what the social democrats have repeatedly suggested. The liberals have also mentioned it. I cannot say to what extent we have differences in terms of the environment. From what I've heard here, they are not great. As concerns security, I believe we both understand that the war in Ukraine needs to be won. Europe's defensive ability needs to be such to ensure credible security should the worst happen and Ukraine lose the war. We must also consider what would happen were the U.S. to dial back its support. I refuse to believe the U.S. would quit NATO or give up defending Europe. But countries will be required to provide more input, more money. That is what we must work toward together.

Ratas: I gave this matter some thought. I was reminded of 2017. The Council was in Italy and it was the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome. We had the chance to meet with leaders and the Pope, and the Pope also gave a speech. There were still 28 member states then, and the Pope said that while very different countries had come together, these differences coming together is the strength of the EU. We must find that consensus.

And yes, I do understand what you are trying to do as a journalist. You'd like to build a concrete wall between us. But I will tear it down. There can be no question, we are working for a common goal, which put briefly is for Estonia and the EU to have good politicians and policy, which is what I believe Isamaa offers through its candidates, values and program. You asked about tax policy. I've been saying for 23 years that taxes need to be collected where there's money, instead of taxing some people to death.

Riho Terras, do you agree?

Ratas: You asked already, and he said he does not.

In Estonia today, when people can afford less, inflation is up, the economy is in recession for the third consecutive year, I believe there is nowhere for taxes to come from.

Terras: Especially as concerns the car tax.

Ratas: Meeting with people – [you hear about] the VAT hike, which used to be just 10 percent. The land tax hike, car tax, sugar tax – where are they? All of these things are hanging over our heads, and the coalition today is waiting to put the pedal to the metal [regarding these things] on June 10, just so you could ask our dear prime minister on the "Esimene stuudio" [debate show] why were these things not talked about, and she'll say it was because these are not popular topics.

What I mean to say is that it is important for Isamaa to do well at these elections. Why? Isamaa is a member of the largest political family in the European Union – the EPP. And this political family is bound to grow.

Our interest, as mentioned by the previous speaker, is that there are various aspects of security policy, which all need to be taken care of, and I see no differences here. Ursula von der Leyen has said that Ukraine needs to be supported for as long as it takes for them to win, and I believe it to be a strong statement, also considering her experience as Germany's defense minister. Through it, we can put the EU on a faster track in security and economic policy and competitiveness.

Thinking about where the differences may be, I have been more involved with social topics in the past. Perhaps that's the difference.

Who could take your place as deputy speaker should you be elected?

Ratas: Estonians are not in the habit of getting ahead of ourselves.

Terras: Turn out, Isamaa voters, as we need to send a message to the ruling coalition!

--

Follow ERR News on Facebook and Twitter and never miss an update!