Kuldar Leis, the phrases we've been hearing repeatedly in recent days — nonpartisan politician, entrepreneur, head of the Capital of Culture — do those describe you best?

Yes, that description could be expanded in many directions, but it's true — the recent past has been like that. I've lived in South Estonia and, most recently, led the [Tartu] Capital of Culture initiative. I've worked in very different fields. And now, I'm stepping into an entirely new one again.

Would you say your worldview aligns more with the early Reform Party or more with the Reform Party of recent years as a broad-based people's party?

I don't think those lines are all that clear-cut. I've always supported a truly free market economy and held liberal views — people are who they are and the main thing is that they get along. That kind of liberal worldview and belief in a free market economy have always been close to my heart.

Maybe the Reform Party leaned more in that direction decades ago than it does now, but the boundaries between parties tend to blur anyway, so I don't see it as an issue.

Will you be a member by the next Riigikogu elections?

I don't know. I need to figure out for myself what the next steps are.

I was invited to become a minister as someone who isn't a party member, and time will tell how things develop. I haven't really had the chance to think much about it yet, so we'll see.

When we arranged this interview, I promised I wouldn't ask you where to find the money for road construction — after all, how should you know if no one else does either. But let me ask using your own words from about five years ago: "Why do we have this inferiority complex in Estonia, where we're the country with the most successful budget policy in Europe, yet we drive between cities on what would be considered back roads by European standards?" Have you found the answer?

Unfortunately, it really is the case that Estonia is, on one hand, a very successful country. If we compare where we were after regaining independence to where we are now, then overall, things are actually going very well.

But on the other hand — and here I'm speaking like a South Estonian — you can look at a simple example: if Harju County's GDP per capita is around 109-110 percent of the EU average, which is very, very good, then in the southeastern counties — Põlva, Võru, Valga — the GDP per capita is around 50 percent of the average. That would suggest we're working half as much or half as effectively in South Estonia, which isn't the case.

One of the reasons for that is definitely infrastructure — roads and all other infrastructure. Developing that infrastructure is absolutely a key issue. But it doesn't happen overnight. It's a long process.

Should we start designing major roads south of Tartu? There's no money for construction, but should the planning at least begin?

Yes — bringing up planning and design like that is absolutely right. Having spent a long time in local government myself, I can say that if you're thinking a bit further ahead, it's always wise to get the design phase done as early as possible. That way, if funding or a new decision comes along, at least the project is ready to go.

And that applies not just to roads, but also to buildings and other infrastructure. So I would definitely encourage both local governments and my own administrative area: if it's feasible, then yes, you should go ahead and plan. If it's possible to do so, then do it.

The Tartu-Elva stretch has already been under discussion and in the planning phase for some time. But beyond that — are you giving the directive now to go ahead and design a three- or four-lane road?

South of Tartu, there's really no point in thinking about 2+2 or similar [roads] — it's just not realistic. In rural areas, the bigger issue is how much we can reduce the number of gravel roads. From an economic development perspective, if someone wants to establish an industrial operation in South Estonia — or anywhere else, really — and the roads are in poor condition, ending with a gravel road, that investor is likely to back out. Especially if they're coming from outside Estonia.

Local governments are struggling financially and so is the state. Whose responsibility is it then?

This period of scarcity will pass. In reality, the curve is moving upward. That's why it makes sense to start with planning and design — since it's not as costly — especially in areas where it's clear that change will be needed and prioritized in the future.

The Germans have announced a plan to spend hundreds of billions of euros over the next 10 years on infrastructure development, in addition to defense — essentially as a way to stimulate the economy. Before leaving the government, the Social Democrats said Estonia should do the same. Now that there will be a bit of leeway in the EU's debt rules anyway, is this an opportunity? Should Estonia also launch a major infrastructure investment program?

Estonia's major investments in the near future are tied to security. So if there's some overlap with infrastructure, then of course that makes sense. But I don't see any large-scale investments coming to the road network that aren't connected to security or to Rail Baltica.

Rail Baltica is likely to be your main focus during your time in office — Estonia's most important infrastructure project.

Yes. Infrastructure projects have a very long timeline — they outlast ministers. I know that on Estonia's side, things are moving along well and it should be completed by 2030. But since this also involves cooperation with Latvia and Lithuania, it's a major issue. That said, I fully support moving forward with Rail Baltica.

If you were the one making decisions in Latvia, which direction would you build first — south or north?

Well, logically speaking, from Latvia's perspective it would make sense to start building southward. But our role here is to engage with them and make the case that the northern direction is just as important.

Rail Baltica brings us back to the question of funding. And again, I don't expect you to know on your second day in office where to find the money — especially if your predecessors didn't either — but over the next two years, there's a shortfall of €350 to €400 million just to keep construction on schedule. Beyond that, we don't know much yet about the next EU budget period. Negotiating that will, among other things, be your task. As an entrepreneur, what do you usually do when there's not enough money?

There are a couple of approaches. One — which tends to be less popular — is to cut costs. But with Rail Baltica, that's simply not an option. The other is to bring in more funds, either by earning or securing them. In business, the focus is on earning, but in the case of the state budget, we need to find funding opportunities and financing solutions.

I honestly can't say on my second day in office how exactly this will play out, but it's not something that depends on one person — or even a minister. If there's a strong team working toward that goal, then I believe it will move forward.

There are all sorts of ideas out there. For example, that the joint venture RB Rail could take out a loan. Or that the national companies — like Rail Baltic Estonia in Estonia's case — could borrow. Since you've studied finance, would you lend to a company like RB Rail?

Well, it all depends on the business plan — whether the bank will even let you in the door. I'm not in a position today to say whether the business plan holds up, but I think the whole package needs to be looked at — whether it's Rail Baltica applying for a loan or financing in some other form, or whether it's done through the Estonian state. It has to be approached as a complete package. Just like with other projects where public-private partnerships (PPPs) have been discussed, in the end it all comes down to feasibility — what's the most reasonable and sustainable option to use.

Can a country be run like a business?

Not exactly — of course not. There are a lot of differences. But experience in business and working across different sectors is definitely an advantage, because in the end, the most important thing is managing people — finding and keeping the kinds of people who make the right decisions and drive things forward.

At the request of the prime minister, a group of entrepreneurs will begin meeting at the Government Office to propose ways to reduce bureaucracy. Their proposals will go straight to cabinet meetings and may even lead to decisions, draft bills or laws. Do you already have a list prepared of unnecessary bureaucracy that should be cut?

I don't have a list prepared, but I strongly support this initiative. One of the main reasons I agreed to enter public service was precisely because the renewed government is placing such a strong emphasis on cooperation with entrepreneurs.

And this advisory group — I'm really hopeful about it. There's a big difference here compared to, say, across the Atlantic, where a single businessman is declaring what needs to be done. In Estonia's case, we have so many entrepreneurs genuinely willing to help, offering good-faith input on how to reduce bureaucracy.

I think this is a very, very positive step. So I hope that all new laws and regulations coming out of our ministry will take this into account and help reduce red tape — not just for businesses, but for everyday people too.

But have you personally encountered this kind of unnecessary bureaucracy?

Absolutely — I've seen it firsthand over the years. I've been on the supervisory board of a company for 15 years and I've regularly asked our accountant whether the number of reports required has decreased or increased over time.

For about 10 years, it stayed more or less the same — maybe even increased slightly. But in the last few years, the number of reports has actually started to decrease, which means the accountant's workload has gone down. And that's exactly the goal — to reduce it even further, because there's no point in collecting the same data twice.

You've said that the country should be developed as evenly as possible. Former Minister of Regional Affairs Piret Hartman (SDE) repeatedly urged other members of the government not to shut down state institution offices in places like Põlva. But she wasn't really listened to — cuts had to be made. Whether it was the Social Insurance Board, the Tax and Customs Board or the local courthouse, closures still went ahead. The Transport Administration still has an office in Põlva, but for years now they've argued that regional offices are an unreasonable expense, that many services can be done online and that people usually only take a driving test once in their lives anyway. So, is it time to allow the Transport Administration to start scaling back its network of offices?

Well, the beginning of your question hits on the key issue — the real problem is that offices of various agencies have been shut down without any discussion with the local communities.

The locals will immediately say no.

Well, that's not strictly the case. Things have been done over people's heads. They even bypassed the Ministry of Regional Affairs, as the local government only learned of it after the fact, and what is there to discuss once the decision has been made.

It was logical to shut down some of these offices, while others should have been kept open. I saw it up close in the case of the Social Insurance Board, or services for people who really are struggling and need on-location services. Offices should not have been closed unexpectedly like that, and a solution should have been found instead. While it may have made sense to close others.

It also becomes a national security matter when the periphery starts to run out of people. If people living close to the border have no access to public services, they will eventually move to big cities, which will only hurt our security situation.

What about the Transport Administration offices?

I'm not up to speed on all the details, but insofar as I've spoken to local leaders, there are those in rural areas who need a place to go for [accessing] services, as they are unable to handle things online. It's difficult to say how many there are, but there is strong demand, and it is not something that's visible from Tallinn.

Let's stay on the subject of the Transport Administration. If we don't have money to build roads, we should see to the safety of road users in other ways. The Transport Administration has been saying for years how a penalty points system and average speed traps constitute evidence-based solutions. As experienced drivers, many politicians believe they know how to organize traffic and ignore the agency's recommendations. Will you listen to specialists?

I'd like to listen to them in terms of what other European countries have done, places that have a longer traffic safety tradition.

Let's start by admitting that our traffic safety situation is not fine. We have too many deaths, injuries for a small country. This means something needs to be changed. Next, we should come up with concrete proposals of how to improve traffic safety. I cannot say today whether it will be a penalty points system or average speed measurement, but we should look at what countries nearby have done and what has worked for them.

They're praising Lithuania for their use of average speed cameras.

Well, we need to revisit this matter if it's the right thing to do.

You have experience with average speed cameras. A smart road was built in Põlva by a company you own. Many have recalled how Igor Taro (now joining Leis in the new government of the Reform Party and Eesti 200 as minister of the interior — ed.), who was head of the opposition in the Põlva City Council at the time, accused you of a conflict of interest. You were a member of the council when relevant decisions were being made. But leaving that aside, the smart road has been measuring the average speed of drivers using 10 cameras with license plate recognition for some time now. How are the locals liking it?

First of all, in terms of what you referred to, it was a non-starter. Since we were dealing with general application legislation, there was no problem.

But in terms of how it's working out — it's working just fine. Põlva is the perfect place for it because it has a long street running through almost the entire city and you can measure [speeds] on a very long stretch. Many drive through the city. /.../

I know that my predecessor Vladimir Svet (SDE) also visited Põlva to see the road in action, wanted to talk to the Transport Administration about how it could be done in other places. Average speed measurement is working in many others places in Europe.

Looking at Estonian innovation, it would be good if it could be put to use in Estonia, without the need to pilot it somewhere else first. It is a matter of working with entrepreneurs to answer the question why should we test our products in other parts of the world.

The defense industry is currently a good example of this. If it matters to us, then we'll create our own defense industry and do things for ourselves. The same applies to traffic solutions and startups in general — let us test things in Estonia. The Põlva example is a good one, and many people from other countries have come to see it.

Does this mean it will be decided during your term that Estonia will have average speed traps?

I'm not sure the decision is up to our ministry. Several ministries have stakes here, so we'll have to put the topic on the agenda. But it goes beyond us.

Will you promote it?

I haven't given it thought yet.

I have been asked what my two or three [main] topics will be? But I would say that it is primarily Rail Baltica, and secondly, I'd like to address topics that matter to the whole nation. I do not want to subscribe to very specific things today. For example, one thing that has been largely overlooked is the waste reform, which is coming, and where we'll need to find and put in practice much faster solutions.

Are they in favor of Waste Act amendments in Põlva?

Generally, yes. It's a major turn and I have looked into how best to go about it.

Because I live in a private home, the solutions there are different from what would be optimum for apartment buildings. I believe it would be sensible to leave local governments with a measure of freedom in terms of how to make [waste] collection most effective in densely populated areas. We also want to have more handlers. We have very few waste managers today.

Your colleague [Minister of Economic Affairs and Industry] Erkki Keldo said during last week's government press conference that the sale of Pärnu Airport should be put on the agenda. The airport is working in Tartu, but why isn't that the case in Pärnu? As I understand it, you're glad to have the opportunity to fly out from Tartu yourself.

Yes, I often fly from Tartu, and the plane has been completely full on a couple of occasions, while it's been at 60-70 percent capacity at other times.

It has been a much-needed step for Tartu. It's less for tourists and more university employees and businesspeople flying. I was in favor of flights to and from Helsinki so that journalists or tourists could come for Tartu Capital of Culture events. But it's mainly for local life, for all of South Estonia. Perhaps that is the difference — that while the airport is for businesses and the university in Tartu, in Pärnu, it is largely a tourist thing. And if it hasn't taken off properly, we need to analyze what's to be done.

Will we move a university and entrepreneurs to Pärnu?

The University of Tartu has its Pärnu College there, but that is not enough.

So what will happen?

We don't know what will happen today. But if Erkki Keldo has raised the issue, I suppose we'll have to put our heads together.

Permit me another quick traffic question. Small red electric mopeds hit the streets of Tallinn today or yesterday. I saw Tallinn Deputy Mayor Kristjan Järvan downstairs, and he wants to give local governments the right to limit the number of scooters and mopeds on their territory. But that requires changing the law. He asked me to ask you whether such an amendment might be coming?

When it comes to light vehicles, I have the feeling that safety is the number one concern, or how safety will change depending on whether we have more or fewer of them and whether they can go slower or faster. But it comes as new information that it requires amending the law. The ministry must maintain a close relationship with Tallinn and other major cities. But in general terms, I would prioritize safety.

What will be your biggest Achilles' heel or topic where you'll take nothing but flak and be embarrassed to be interviewed over the next two years?

I don't know. You never know about embarrassing interviews, and I hope there will be nothing of the sort. But examples from the near past include the [Russian] shadow fleet, cable damage and other such topics that always come suddenly and affect the whole country. That is when you need to react fast and different parts of the state need to work together. That said, I believe Estonia has done a good job so far, including working with Finland on the recent incidents.

I don't know... I was reading a report on recent U.S.-Russia talks, and the Americans are promising to help reduce insurance payments and assist Russia in getting the fleet back on its feet.

That's new information to me.

Well, you're looking at a lot of work and I wish you good luck! Thank you, Kuldar Leis, for being here.

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