You know both Donald Trump and Kamala Harris well. You've met with both. I believe there has never been a U.S. election with candidates quite as different as these two. Was the result to be expected?

It was a little surprising in that it seems to confirm the hypothesis that not all Donald Trump supporters wished to admit they were. Personally, I have met more times with Donald Trump than Harris.

Why didn't Kamala Harris succeed in convincing voters?

I couldn't tell you. But she has served as Joe Biden's vice president, and the Biden presidency has been quite bloodless. She's also mostly been in the background, and perhaps a few months was not enough time to shake off that image, be stronger and more active. So, Kamala Harris may have had a tough time of it.

What's at stake in Europe, now that Trump's victory seems certain?

It's what it looks like. From where we're standing, attitudes toward Ukraine and security are what matters. We were not happy with Biden's treatment of Eastern Europe. Let us recall, if only, how many times we met with Trump, Mike Pence and his national security advisers. They were here in the context of the Three Seas Initiative, while we often visited the United States. It seemed like consistent and stable cooperation Eastern Europe, the Baltics and Poland, pursued with the previous Trump administration.

We do not feel like we pursued the same kind of cooperation with the current administration. The Biden administration has been very modest and careful. One might even be cautiously optimistic about Trump's unpredictability on this backdrop.

But indeed – you quoted what I told Fox News, which is what Donald Trump said during our press conference: "We have never let you down, we shall never let you down." I believe he will be reminded of how strong he was during his first presidency. He really did work closely with countries on the eastern flank, and it seemed his trust in us – through the Three Seas Initiative, which Estonia was coordinating at the time – was perceptibly bigger compared to our Western European colleagues.

Therefore, I would remain cautiously optimistic, with the caveat that you can never predict what Trump is going to do based on the past. There is uncertainty, while the situation is not one where we're sure to fare poorly. We just don't know today. But trying to look at what our relationship has been, knowing that Zelenskyy and his team have put in a lot of work, using people close to Trump to get under the new team's skin, I dare ward off deep pessimism.

That said, Ukraine wasn't mentioned once in Trump's election campaign.

Because it really doesn't matter that much to people in America.

I visit America regularly, and it really isn't a primary topic outside think tanks. I believe that people there will think of the Palestine-Israel matter and the Taiwan-China matter before they think of Ukraine. It has been our task all along to demonstrate that it is all the same war, with the axis of evil running through Iran, Russia and North Korea, with candid Chinese support, but perhaps less candid –that it is all the same war. We just need to keep walking that path.

You said that Ukraine does not really interest people in America. Trump has promised to pay more attention to domestic matters, with migration one big issue. Might that not mean Europe will be sidelined?

But again, what are Biden's pretty words worth? He said in Kyiv, through his National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, that he has a few months left as president and that during this period, forceful steps will be taken to support Ukraine. What were they worth? While we have been promised major support, the concept that took shape in the White House when [Russian] aggression started in 2022 – that Russia must suffer strategic loss – does not say that Ukraine must win. And they've only stuck to this strategy halfway. So, we have no reason to say that things were just fine until now. They could have been worse, but I do not see the current administration as having faced us or our foreign policy. We'll see what comes next.

What are Donald Trump's strengths as a politician? He rather acted like an entertainer during his campaign. He painted a decidedly one-sided picture of himself.

I cannot point to his strengths other than I've had a few opportunities to talk with him about some of his admittedly strong foreign policy steps. Like what happened in Syria where he really was stronger. Obama drew a red line and then failed to stick to it, while Trump took serious steps, following the advice of his defense secretary and NSA (national security advisor – ed.). I once asked them why they responded so sharply, and he said, you know, they were gassing children. Unfortunately, the Ukrainians have plenty of examples to offer of Russian cruelty. Once you get through to him [Trump], it is possible to spark and notice compassion. And I believe our friends in Ukraine have been working on it. That might be his most positive quality.

But in terms of unpredictability, we never know whether Vance or Mike Pompeo will come out on top in terms of who Trump will listen to. I asked the latter in Kyiv, but he had no answer for me. I moderated a panel of both Republican and Democrat congressmen. But it was all empty air, because the Democrats dared not pledge strength, while the Republicans just didn't know what would happen. So, unpredictability is always bad in traditional diplomacy. That said, I'm not sure we're in a traditional situation.

Trump's unpredictability can also be a strength.

Exactly. Putin also doesn't know what Trump is thinking right now. I'm sure that people who want to poison Trump against Putin will try to explain attempts at influencing elections etc. to him. I cannot imagine what else could be used to sway him. But I somehow still believe that Trump remembers his stance toward Eastern Europe from last time. We might ask whether the fact Poland has a different government will affect it. But are they so different after all. Besides, Poland will still have the same president for a while longer.

You mentioned Vice President-elect Vance. He was very visible during certain periods of the campaign. Could it be that he is the real power behind Trump?

I don't think so. I recall in terms of how Donald Trump and Mike Pence's team worked the latter always saying, I spoke to the president and he asked me to tell you... I believe Donald Trump is the person who holds the reins. But he does rely on his vice president, and his previous vice president was quite active also outside the U.S. despite not being much of a foreign policy expert.

European countries have suggested that Trump is like a businessman –someone who deals in what will I get if I give you what you want.

You could say that. For us, the door to the Trump administration and his team was the Three Seas Initiative, which perhaps hasn't resulted in too much economic progress, but I believe it helped Eastern Europe to define itself as a functional economic area. It largely opened the door to the White House for us. We need to find the places where we can work together.

That is the case with every administration, but looking at the Biden administration's cooperation with the Baltics or the eastern flank in Europe, it was not as close as it was in Trump's day.

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